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  • Hola chica! I see I have inadvertently been stomping around on your "Moving Targets" story work. That was very insensitive of me, I didn't think first, and I am stopping. If it's not obvious, I am the moron who didn't see the Scooby Doo coming until the end - I just thought Ryu's talk was being silly, not a flag for the whole story. It happens about 1/4 into it, and I should have woken up then, lol.

    In my other edits the past few weeks, I hope I haven't been too inconsistent in my formatting. I have trashed your page hete with too many long posts, lol, and I think some of our conversations are somewhere else. I'm in a "more befuddled than usual" state.

    EDIT: just found the hint. "View all 16 replies." I've definitely made a mess.

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    • Yes but I want to obsessively document it, lol. With quotes from books where mentioned. Could you kindly bookmark any more you find as you come across them? I haven't read the novels in forever. Just made myself re-read Arrows and the writing is kind of immature compared to her later works, which have clearly spoiled me. A couple spots I was actually cringing, lol. I had probably better re-read them, but at the same time, any notes would be appreciated. 2. Also, there is no entry for "Whites." Not sure if it deserves one, but meh. 3. Regarding character lists, a few days ago I deleted some names that weren't active in the story, like Vkandis, Ancar, and Darenthallis. If someone is never physically in any scenes nor speaking nor even quoted, are they really a character in that story? My deletions were impulsive. There is something to be said for inclusion, as it puts a story in context, timeline, reference, or whatever. Should they be "mentions" or something? Vkandis and Star-Eyed should practically be under "terms" (concepts?), they are mentioned *very* often but so rarely actually appear. What are your thoughts?

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    • I posted a reply yesterday, but it seems to have vanished into the ether.  :P

      So, here we go again, in reverse order:

      (3) I've wrestled with whether or not to include the 'mentions' in the character list.  I finally settled on including them when (a) it's the first (and usually only) time they're mentioned, i.e. Herald Seldasen in Magic's Price; (b) they appear in flashbacks; or (c) they figure significantly into the plot.  Rather than a whole section for these, I'd be inclined to just add a note such as "This story also mentions Alberich and Selenay."  I'm not sure the average mention really warrants more than that.

      I generally follow this same rule of thumb for dealing with deities.  For example, Agnira and her sisters are in the By the Sword character list, even though they aren't especially important, simply because it gives me a place to link their article.  Otherwise, I don't usually list non-relevant/unimportant deities.  It's always problematic when a story is focused on one of their adherents.  For example, you can't put Karal in a story without Vkandis being mentioned a lot.  It's almost a given, so there doesn't seem to be any point in listing Vkandis if he doesn't actually appear.

      (2) As for the Heralds' Whites, I detailed uniform colors on the Collegia page, and I think they're also mentioned on the Bard, Healer, Herald and Artificer pages if I remember correctly.  As I'm sure you're well aware by now, I'm a big fan of completeness.  ;)  If you'd like a page for Whites, go for it.  I admit, I've often thought about adding one for 'Blues' as it's such a ubiquitous term.

      (1) I've been enjoying re-reading the novels.  I read an interview with Lackey years ago where she talked about how Velgarth has been slowly evolving, each novel fleshing things out just a little more.  You can really see that when you binge them in publication order.

      The Arrows trilogy had plenty of rough spots, but there's a certain naive freshness to a first novel that I really enjoy, and that made it easier to overlook the flaws.  The ones that made me cringe were the Last Herald-Mage trilogy.  I loved them when I first read them in high school, and teen angst was running high.  Re-reading them now, the first book was especially painful.  I just wanted to smack Vanyel every time he whined about how he was just so misunderstood.  Savil had way more patience wih him than I ever could have.  :)

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  • sample http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?513 they use regular brackets [ ] to denote if the story is from a series, and then follow with the author name. but of course wikipedia can't handle that. so I used braces { }. Did not want to use parentheses. some of these authors also wrote stories that are not series, such as School on the Hill by Elisabeth Waters. Meh.

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  • I am Slow: I only just realized that it's easy to tell which anthologies have an identically-named short story: they are the ones titled "and other Tales of Valdemar." So, there are like six.

    <snip = all done!>

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    • had a nice long post here. saved on Word but then made more revisions here. Lost 'em, heh.


      Ironically, I paused reading the anthologies to read Oathbound, as my existing personal catalog notes were sketchy. And Vows and Honor is my all-time favorite. As you have been following my work (at least I assume and hope so, as your changes have been 100% beneficial) then you know I've added more refs to oathbound than anything else, lol. Just came across a little fun item. I had been holding a grudge about pages for locations that only appear in one story. Ran across the Broken Sword Inn, which is in Mornedealth in chs. 2-3 of Oathbound. And realized that the stable-girl is the elderly horse-seller in "A Dream Deferred" (Moving Targets), selling horses which Tarma had promised her as a child! That was neat. So I'm eating crow once again, lol.

      7. No offence meant about the Solaris page. Things get done when they get done. I only meant to use it as an example. You are right about the disambiguation pages as well. It's a convenience for the writer, not the reader, but that is okay, lol.

      6. The Ree series page currently *is* a duplicate, that's where I got it from, lol. I put all of the series detail on the Ree page before thinking it wasn't the ideal approach. The series events affect multiple people. And multiple authors, Hoyt and Paulk, sometimes together and sometimes separate, the sneaks! lol. I think the Ree character page will now get the freedom to explain his inner thoughts across the stories - basically questions about himself, and how he believes Jem "kept him human," which he believed he would have lost on his own. It also leaves room for his thoughts about Jem - he can't believe Jem is his partner, when he could have any girl, and sire children, etc. Those details don't belong in a short story summary, IMO. But I think I got told at Wikipedia that a character page should be about the character himself, his personality, thoughts, opinions, etc, rather than just a repeat of what happens to him in the stories. But I will concede that nobody at wikipedia follows that guideline, lol.

      I can't argue that the mini-series titles would be artificial. But I don't know how else to group some of them, unless I devolve to the authors (which wouldn't work for Ree because Hoyt/Paulk.) The animal mindspeakers (Starting with Changing the World "A storytelling of Crows" by Elisabeth Waters) have two heroines, Maia and Lena, who appear solo or together in stories. They are a particular pain because I have no idea what to call the series. My bottom line is to show a *list* of the stories, all in one place, that comprise the series. Maybe that's wrong, idk. I'll do another at some point and you can see what you think.

      5. topic completed. well. I did have two questions. I am wondering why the standard doesn't identify the person as a Herald, maybe in the infobox, and name of Companion? Seems important to me. And OTOH, not worth editing countless character pages just for that, lol. Also, does it matter to you what order the headings are in (i.e., follow Talia)?

      4. okay. any chance of a "during", though, like "Selenay's reign" for things that are so far out of her orbit we don't know more than that? Or is that just dumb? Ree etc are in the Empire, for example. Other than change-circles, I haven't a clue. Idk, maybe I'm just overthinking.

      3. I'm feeling anxiety about the first publication appearance too, lol. Tarma's first *publication* was "Turnabout" in Fantasy Book Sep-1985 (Reference Internet Speculative Fiction Database, under "Short Fiction" heading.) (Mercedes Lackey actually squeed about this in Oathblood because it was her first professional publication ever.) The story was slotted into Oathbound in 1988 and later collected in Oathblood in 1998. I'd recently added this info to both Oath- book pages. Their first *meeting*, chronologically, was Sword-Sworn (also sometimes titled Sword Sworn), published in Sword and Sorceress III, Jul-1986. It was not collected in a "Valdemar" book until Oathblood in 1998!! Tarma's first "Valdemar book" publication was Oathbound), 1988, and that's what's in her infobox right now. I protest.

      1a. Not sure why you gave Shalaman as an example, since he doesn't have any anthology appearances. The inline citations are identical to the novel page names: very short. I revised the Jors page "In the Series" section so you can see what the full names will look like, especially en masse. It isn't just a mobile thing (I don't even use mobile view) - it's ugly in desktop mode. I am already resigned to it - just don't be surprised at what I have been whining about.

      Using the long anthology names, without the "(anthology)" in parentheses, will be *easier* for me to code: just use the popup name with no pipe rename required. It's way more convenient for us (and accurate!) Just troubles me that it looks all jumbly on the finished page.

      1b. A ruling please, on using "in" between the author name and the anthology name? It's what I use in my personal library. I added it to the Ree character page so you could take a look. It's not as good-looking as I thought, but replacing the comma with "in" is a bit more explanatory than wondering what all these strung-together links mean?

      1c. If it's okay with you, I'll just start coding things with "and other tales of valdemar", which will only be dead links for a few days until you change over. No point in making the catch-up work more than it has to be?

      8. The blather about Tarma and Kethry (The Swordswoman ... The Mage...) on each Vows and Honors page is annoying af. I assume someone slapped it there when they had no other content. Could we (a) remove it or (b) make the section header say "back cover"? I am at sea because I only have ebooks without back covers, so I'm hoping you have hardcopies. It may even be an inside front page blurb. I have no idea and must rely on you!!

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    • 7. No offense taken on the Solaris page. I just thought it might help to have a little background, as I'm still running across idiosyncrasies left over from the earliest days.  :)

      6. Thoughts, emotions, etc. definitely belong on the character pages, but so do straightforward actions and events. Think of any biography you have ever read. You get the basic facts of the person's life and a physical description. The best bios also include diary entries, etc. showing the person's feelings and state of mind. The wiki character pages are intended to be miniature biographies.

      5. Actually, Heralds are identified as such in the character infobox. I did not include Companions' names because only about a fifth of the characters so far are Heralds. I do agree as to the importance of the Companions, however, which is why they have their own section header on every Herald's page, even if all we know is a gender without a name.

      The actual order of sections doesn't really matter. I'm just being fussy.  ;)

      4. I can't remember offhand where they are, but I know there are a number of places around the wiki where a date is given only as 'Reign of So-and-so'. Keep in mind, most of the dating was done by MerlynPrime ages ago. (I can't even imagine how long it took him to puzzle out some of that!) He wrote the original timeline. I just broke it up across multiple pages and started adding to it. Very little in terms of actual dates has been added since Merlyn was a regular.

      3. Honestly, Tarma and Kethry are just a mess as far as that goes. (Though we also have Alberich being Chosen in a Greenberg anthology.) I'd say go ahead and add the citations you have to the various publication lists, much like the Horse Fantastic story. You might also want to add notes to Tarma and Kethry's character pages, explaining how far back they go. As for the infobox, I'm rather at a loss. I'm inclined to leave it alone, as that's the first volume published with Lackey's name on it. However, if you feel that strongly about it, go ahead and change it.

      (My first introduction to Lackey, much less Velgarth, was the S&S III story.  :)

      1a. I was just attempting to point out the difference between references and citations. References are always quite a lot shorter, so that should help.

      1b. I chose the comma originally because that's the way citations are done in almost every format (i.e. MLA, etc.) for any short work that's part of a longer publication, like an essay in a collection. I don't suppose it really matters in the long run, but I'm inclined to stick with the comma, if for no other reason than that I really don't want to edit out commas on well over 500 character pages.  :)

      1c. I finished changing over the affected anthology titles earlier today.

      8. I made a few adjustments to Oathbound. Better? The description matches Amazon word for word, so it was almost certainly the back cover blurb. It's also overly dramatic in that way that just screams 80s paperback.  :)  Feel free to replace it with an actual synopsis.

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  • I'd like to add brief descriptions of the short stories (not revealing the ending) on the anthology pages. Some of the stories are just too lightweight to warrant creating separate articles.

    I also want to add the short stories to a few character pages. For example, Solaris has significant appearances in several.

    As a third side note, it is very good that the anthology and story Sun in Glory are on two separate pages. The articles are titled Sun in Glory (anthology) and Sun in Glory (short story.) However, there are other "self-titled" stories in the other anthologies, and articles for those stories do not yet exist. I don't want to retitle each anthology page to include "(anthology)", because those anthology books are already referenced all over the wiki. Retitling these links everywhere would take effort better spent on producing more content/info. So if a self-titled short story needs a page created, I'd prefer to just put (short story) and leave the anthology title alone.

    I'm saying all this because this work will be arduous for me, and I want to make sure it's okay beforehand. Let me know. Pokemama1 (talk) 03:30, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Welcome to the Valdemar wiki!  :)

      I'd like each story to have its own page, no matter how lightweight it is.  However, if you only want to work on the meatier ones, feel free. Just make sure to follow the same structure as the other short story pages, and mark the page as a stub until it is completely filled out, meaning it has all the necessary sections, the characters are all linked to their own pages, as are any relevant terms and place names, and there is a navigational box in the upper righthand corner.  This is not to say that you need to provide all that information yourself, just that the stub designation needs to stay on the page until all the information is there. Add as much or as little as you wish.

      As for the descriptions of each story, whether or not you choose to reveal the ending is up to you.  Some people have done very detailed descriptions that are basically story outlines, others have done something more like a publisher teaser. How much or how little you do in that respect is up to you as well.

      Please do provide links to the short stories on the character pages. There's a standard layout for this as well. The Talia article has one, if you need a reference.

      As for the duplicated page name problem, I realized that was going to be an issue as soon as I started adding short story pages. As you noted, it's a big job to fix, which is why I've only fixed a few so far. I always intended to fix these as I went along. Since you're going to start work on the short stories, I'll make sure I get these fixed more quickly.  :)  I've already done Moving Targets, and I've started on Sword of Ice and Other Tales of Valdemar. Unless there's a particular one you need done right away (please let me know if there is), I'll go through them in publication order.

      I've been meaning to write a handbook for this wiki for over a year. Your message makes me think I should probably get started on that now.  :)

      Thanks for kicking me back into gear on my wiki to-do list. I'm glad you found us and want to contribute.  Don't hesitate to let me know if there's anything you need.

      Welcome aboard and happy editing!

      WrenDancing (talk) 14:49, July 16, 2017 (UTC)

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  • There are apparently 24 pages that link to shaman, do I need to set up reciprocal links?

    Thanks!

    Kim

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    • Thanks for creating the page.  Not everything needs a reciprocal link.  I think you've got it covered.

      Welcome to the wiki!  It's always great to see a new contributor.  :)

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